I’ll just give you the story in it’s entirety (no editing on my part) and leave comments up to you.
The author of controversial book The God Delusion is helping to launch Britain’s first summer retreat for non-believers.
Richard Dawkins is subsidising the camp which will offer children aged eight to 17 the chance to sing along to John Lennon’s Imagine and have lessons in evolution.
The five-day camp, based in Somerset, promises to be ‘beyond belief’ – the event’s motto – and will rival traditional faith-based breaks run by the Scouts and church groups.
As well as traditional camp pursuits such as trekking and tug-of-war attendees will be given lessons in moral philosophy and evolutionary biology as well as debating otherworldly activities such as crop circles and telepathy.
There will even be a £10 prize for the child who can disprove the existence of the mythical unicorn.
And instead of finishing up the day with a toasted marshmallow and round of Kim-bi-ya budding atheists will belt out ‘Imagine there’s no heaven…and no religion too.’
Dawkins said the camp was designed to ‘encourage children to think for themselves sceptically and rationally.’
The event has been held in America for 13 years and was set up in the UK by Samantha Stein, a postgraduate psychology student from London.
The 23-year-old said the 24 places available were now taken and she hoped to expand next year after receiving hundreds more inquiries.
She said the camp, to be held from July 27 to July 31, was not intended to convert children but to introduce them to a different way of thinking.
‘It is not about changing what they think, but the way that they think.
‘There is very little that attacks religion, we are not a rival to religious camps.
‘We exist as a secular alternative open to children from parents of all faiths and none.’
The theme of the camp is evolution, to coincide with the Darwin 200th anniversary celebrations this year.
The programme includes canoeing, drama, nature walks, singing and swimming.
There will also be philosophical and scientific discussion for children who will be taught about evolution and that ethical behaviour is not dependent on religious belief and doctrines.
Christian organisations which run summer camps include the Church Pastoral Aid Society, an evangelical group which operates 100 holiday schemes ‘giving young people a chance to meet Jesus Christ’.
“There will also be philosophical … discussion for children”
Ah great, lead by Dawkins? Glad to know the youth of Britain will be indoctrinated with in the method of thinking that is junk philosophy. Can’t we at least get a competent atheist to run a camp like this?
I don’t think it’s a good idea or a bad idea. If Christians can have summer camps, atheists can too. I find no problem with it.
There are “critical thinking” camps in the US- they have nothing to do with morality or philosophy so much as teaching children how to think scientifically. They use non-didactic teaching methods to teach kids how to experiment and hypothesize.
I wish I had the opportunity to go to a “geek” camp like that.
There are “atheist” camps in the US too- though they’re usually some form of secular humanism. I think they’re stupid because it makes atheism/secular humanism more and more religious-like. Though unfortunately some of the “critical thinking” camps are associated with the atheist/secular humanism camps based on the correlation of scientific skepticism and atheism.
Meh.
I would love to listen to Dawkins lecture on evolution- not so much about atheism- chiefly because I’m sick to death of people raving about atheism- both for and against.
The only thing I sort of have a problem with is them including evolution in the “atheist camp.” That sort of implies what all the fundamentalists yell about, that evolution disproves God and is used as the means to say there is no God. And it doesn’t. So they’re sort of propagating the idea that atheism and evolution are essentially one in the same, which doesn’t do any of us evolution-supporting, God-believers a lot of help.
As a Christian .. this bothers me.
These are kids. It is sad to me that these people would put a childs soul in this position.
I believe that God gets mocked non stop lately and God wont be mocked.
Here are my thoughts:
I just had to laugh when I read this:
“She said the camp, to be held from July 27 to July 31, was not intended to convert children but to introduce them to a different way of thinking.”
But then there is many huge contradiction to that statement in the article:
“‘beyond belief’ – the event’s motto”
“budding atheists will belt out ‘Imagine there’s no heaven…and no religion too.’ ”
“that ethical behaviour is not dependent on religious belief and doctrines.”
They also say in there that the camp is for “children from parents of all faiths and none.’”….um… this implies that children do not or can not have a faith, that it is their parents faith that they have. I know a young teenaged boy that started going to Catholic Mass by himself, and he said it just felt right. None of his family is religious. And he is not an isolated case.
I have no problems with a camp for science that teaches evolution. Heck, I went to one in Jr. High! (I had to wade into a pond and capture a water snake so we could see how that particular species is different from other snake species and how it evolved because of the environment being more wet. They had a desert snake with them that was the comparison.) There are plenty of non-religious themed camps out there. Science, arts, theater, math, nature…… none of them have to bash one faith over another to get kids to go to them.
I agree with Rae when she said: “I think they’re stupid because it makes atheism/secular humanism more and more religious-like.” I think the goal is to tell kids how wrong their parents are and how the only way to think “critically” is to be an atheist. Heck – why do you think Dawkins is the one helping to launch it?
“.um… this implies that children do not or can not have a faith, that it is their parents faith that they have”
Isn’t that how Christian camps work, too? Many kids go to Christian camps because they grew up Christian and their parents are Christian, not necessarily because they have made an effort to question and assert the faith within themselves.
PIP –
You haven’t been around children much have you? Even my 7 year old is questioning what he is being taught and analyzing our answers. (Of course he is a bet obsessive……). Seriously, most kids do question. Danny went to a Christian camp this summer and he wasn’t “brain washed” or anything like that. They made crafts, sang songs, jumped around, played, had races……..
Most teens I know that come into my Church (remember, I work there so I see more than the average church goer) come on their own. There is one teen – I think he is 15 – his parents drop him off for Mass on Sunday – he signed himself up for religious ed and goes to classes right after Mass and then his parents pick him up. He isn’t Catholic, wasn’t raised Catholic but is thinking of converting. His parents said they will support him, but just they also say they think he is nuts for doing this on his own. Our teens are so active that they have a “teen” mass on Sunday night. Groups of teens are there without their parents forcing them to be there.
People really don’t give kids enough credit. They question more than people realize. For the most part, children are not blind followers, that is why we say they are “so honest” – because they have a newness in the way they ask questions and look at life. Its refreshing for a reason.
I did the whole VBS (vacation bible school) thing when I was little, ditto with “faith formation” as well.
It wasn’t by choice, my mother decided I needed to do these things in order to be Catholic (part of them agreement things that keeps my parents’ marriage valid and keeps my mom from getting excommunicated given that she committed the sin of all sins and married a Methodist).
Even with all that and the cutesy little “kiddie” bibles and stuff…I was already a bit skeptical when I was 7 years old. Imagine my excitement- I was 7 and going on my first airplane ride. I was going to be above the clouds. I always thought that heaven was above the clouds (as heaven was always drawn like that in all my “kiddie” bibles)- so since I was going to go in an airplane above the clouds I was going to see heaven and angels. Imagine my disappointment when there was just…more clouds. And sky.
That little trip put the seeds of doubt that later fully bloomed when I was 12.
I wish my parents wasted their money on a science camp for me instead of religious ed classes. :-/
Rae,
Same here… They kept making medicine seem harmless… That is why I don’t believe in doctors.
@Stu: Cool. Doctors are stupid anyway.
@Bobby: be glad it isn’t Hitchens who’s running the camp!
Most people I know were ‘faithful Christians’ until they got old enough to stand up to their parents and do what they want with their own faith. Some were still dragged to Church on sundays though, their parents hoping it would rub off on them.
Rae,
Doctors don’t exist and therefore needles….
@Stu: Doctors as we think of them probably don’t exist. In reality they’re just sadists who get off and taking people’s hard-earned cash by putting them through expensive, unnecessary tests only to prescribe them a drug that doesn’t work.
“Most people I know were ‘faithful Christians’ until they got old enough to stand up to their parents and do what they want with their own faith. Some were still dragged to Church on sundays though, their parents hoping it would rub off on them.”
LOL I was the opposite. Kind of. We went to a Dutch Reformed church when I was a kid, up until I was about 9 or 10, but it was mostly because my parents felt like it was important in a “western civilization context” sort of way. Admittedly, being able to fall back on the “[this literary character or situation] is a [Christ figure/Biblical metaphor] because [some theme of redemption, suffering, sacrifice, good v. evil, etc]” did come in handy on those few academic occasions where I just couldn’t find anything else to say about a particular book.
Also my mom said that she didn’t want us to be susceptible to cult-ish things when we were older so she didn’t want us to ever feel like the idea of religion was something new, something secret, etc. I’m not really sure which cults she was talking about, but she may have just been talking about organized religion; she did not like the religion in which she was raised.
Basically my parents put in their time with us in church and were pretty relieved to be done with it. I went to a Bible camp once or twice during elementary school but only because my babysitter, who was trying to become a missionary, was a counselor there. It was basically like a week of babysitting, in my parents’ eyes.
When I was 12 or 13 I started going to an Evangelical church by myself. Not really by myself, but without my family; a friend’s parents would pick me up at my house on their way to church, and I’d go with them; ditto for the youth group meetings on Wednesdays. My parents were kind of baffled by it and chalked it up to social things or just a phase. Maybe it was. I went there for a few years but by the time I was 17 I no longer felt like it was the right place for me to be. And that was that.
Alexandra,
Sad… Your parents put no weight in religion and you grew up agnostic. They instilled their lack of belief in religion in you.
Mine did the same, but they never took us to church. My conversion from atheism to belief was mostly all on my own. My wife had some influence on my as did the issues of my life… Other than that, it was faith and being called.
Nah, Stu, I didn’t really “grow up” agnostic. I grew up pretty strongly religious, oddly. Not really as a young child but as an adolescent/teenager.
The agnosticism came after I was mostly already grown. Of course we never stop growing but it was something I grew into, not something I grew with. If that makes sense.
Alexandra,
I should have said “and you grew into being agnostic”. We are all influenced by what we see our parents do or not do.
“Sad… Your parents put no weight in religion and you grew up agnostic. They instilled their lack of belief in religion in you.”
My parents were the opposite. They tried almost too hard (in my opinion) to force religion on me when I was young and kept shoving it at me as I rejected it when I was older, further alienating me (my perception).
Hell, my dad isn’t even Catholic and has made absolutely no effort in converting (he doesn’t even go to church anymore, when my younger-ish brother and I were growing up, we went to church every Sunday and my dad would come too)- yet he would threaten me with bodily harm if I did not go to my weekly religious ed classes. I would be grounded for several weeks if I put up a fight and refused to go. We would get into knock-down drag-out fights over this- me refusing to go and my parents demanding that I go “or else”.
It was *awesome*.
@Alexandra: You went to a Dutch Reformed church? Wow. My grandpa was Dutch Reformed but he converted to Methodism when he met my grandma because Dutch Reformed were “too conservative” (the brand of methodism my grandparents belong to is rather conservative as well)- so that’s saying somethin’. My grandma thought it was ridiculous that that particular denomination said red was the color of Satan, so nobody was allowed to wear reds or shades of it. Red lipstick was verboten.
Oof.
“We are all influenced by what we see our parents do or not do.”
Agree on that, generally speaking, but that kind of goes against the original thread, which was that kids often question things and form their own opinions about things like religion, regardless of their parents’ beliefs. Parents certainly have an affect on their kids, but depending on the kid in question that effect could go any which way and could be any one of varying levels of intensity. I actually think it’s interesting that I stopped going to church just when I was finally becoming independent of my parents — ie when I could finally drive myself rather than relying on neighbors or, in some cases, my parents — if we’re talking about the effect of a lackadaisical attitude towards religion in parents.
Rae — my childhood church was totally awesome. Not strict, generally speaking. It was a really warm and inviting place. Old traditional building, nice people. My aunt, who lives in Florida, actually got married there because it was so…nice. I always liked it more than the church I went to as a teenager, which was ugly and had annoying Christian rock music etc. I still keep in very occasional contact with the pastor of the Reformed church, in a “how’re your kids” sort of way. He’s awesome. I look back on those Sundays as some of my happiest childhood memories. Mostly because after church we would go across the street to the local dollhouse store and look at miniature furniture.
Miniature furniture!? ZOMG!
There used to be these (heinously expensive) miniature furniture bits for sale in the back of my old American Girl catalogues. I used to want some of it sooooo bad, but there were no dolls for the furniture- you literally bought it to just “show it off” and “decorate”- you didn’t actually play it.
I like miniature things…
Like miniature huskies. I want one. So I can hook it up to a miniature sled. And then watch it pull the sled across the backyard in the winter as though its running across the frozen tundra- only not. :-p
Darn, I just a whole post and my browser messed up.
I use to be a C&E’er (like Rae’s dad call em) but since I met my wife we go to church every Sunday. I have work to do on being a better Cathoic though.
lol Rae. When we were kids we each had a dollhouse. It was srs business! All three of us had our dollhouses in a museum exhibition. Mine was a Victorian townhouse. Younger sister’s was a ranch house, like a horse farm sort of thing. Older sister’s was a colonial.
It was a lesson in interior design, history — and budgeting, given the temptation of the dollhouse store on Sunday afternoons.
“I use to be a C&E’er (like Rae’s dad call em)”
You remember that story? Wow.
Yes Rae, now I use the phrase
They take up all seats during the easter or christmas mass, they you don’t see them for another year.
It’s not good. I wish my parents brought me to church every Sunday.
Rae –
“keeps my mom from getting excommunicated given that she committed the sin of all sins and married a Methodist”
That sounds like my whole family!
My Dad married a Lutheran (? – I think she was a was Luteran).
My Uncle married an agnostic (he is now an athiest and remarried to another athiest)
Another Uncle married a methodist
My sister married an Athiest
and my Dad, the “ultra Catholic” who lives in Kentucky, married a Southern Baptist!
Us good ol’ Irish Catholics have too much Polish in them! We can’t seem to marry in our own religion!
I’m sure we were put here to keep the Bishop’s on their toes!